11 responses

  1. Christopher Chang
    November 14, 2013

    This does, in fact, illustrate a condition where open borders work: when the plausible migrants are “compatible enough” even when not as wealthy.

    But it’s up to existing citizens to judge whether that’s the case; strip them of the right to make that judgment, and you end up with many of the same problems associated with taking away other property rights.

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    • Hansjoerg Walther
      November 15, 2013

      But then these immigrants come from the same countries as do immigrants to other European countries where it is said they are causing major problems. The only difference is that there are more of them relatively in Luxembourg although I have never heard the explanation that other European countries have too few of them.

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      • Christopher Chang
        November 16, 2013

        Last I checked, it was Roma, Muslims, and perhaps Africans which have a track record of widespread incompatibility with European host countries. (There are specific ethnic hatreds on top of this, but they don’t involve Luxembourg.) As long as those groups continue to have little interest in migrating to Luxembourg in significant numbers (looks like the current Muslim proportion is less than 2%), I wouldn’t expect problems. If that situation changes, I’d expect interest in immigration restriction to greatly increase.

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      • Hansjoerg Walther
        November 17, 2013

        There were 2.3% muslims in Luxembourg as of 2010. That’s less than for the countries closeby: Germany 5%, France 7.5%, Belgium 6% and the Netherlands 5.5%, but in a similar range as for other European countries, e.g. Norway 3%, Italy 2.6%, Spain 2.3%. Many other countries fall somewhere in between: Denmark 4.1%, the UK 4.7%, Sweden 4.9%. (Source: http://features.pewforum.org/muslim-population/)

        If I understand you correctly then a percentage of 2.3% muslims does not lead to noticeable problems. How can an extra 2% to 3% change the picture completely? Those are the same type of people after all.

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      • Christopher Chang
        November 18, 2013

        Okay, 2% was a slight underestimate, thanks for the link.

        The level of native discontent seems to be roughly proportional to size and cultural distance. Luxembourg’s Muslims seem to be largely drawn from the former Yugoslavia; they’re plausibly less culturally distant than Muslim immigrants from north Africa/the Middle East would be.

        Empirically, France’s 7.5% (mostly descended from north African immigrant) share is enough to cause significant discontent. While not too much larger than 2.3% as an absolute number, the [size] * [cultural distance] product is nevertheless more than six times as large as for Luxembourg (if we model France’s Muslims as being twice as culturally distant as Luxembourg’s), so it’s not unreasonable for the outcomes to be qualitatively different.

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      • Hansjoerg Walther
        November 22, 2013

        My point was not about the perception of there being a problem. I am well aware that many Europeans have such a perception regarding immigrants, and especially immigrants from muslim countries. My point was about whether the perception has a base in reality and there really is such a problem. If not, natives are the problem, not immigrants. If there is a problem, but the perception is out of proportion with it, then mostly natives are the problem and immigrants only in a minor way.

        That can happen, and so it is not sufficient to point out that there is the perception of a problem to prove there is one. (Interestingly enough, your own explanation does not assume there really is a problem, only that there are people with a different cultural background and how many they are.) If you had gone to European countries in the 1920s, you would have heard lots of people claim there was a serious, maybe deadly problem with Jews. None of that was true. Whole societies can pursue such delusions.

        As for your theory about what drives such perceptions: I guess there is a kernel of truth in it, that human beings will view people who are unlike them with more distrust. If so, it looks more like an imperfection of the human mind than an apriori proof that the distrust has a base in reality.

        And it is not clear whether higher numbers increase or decrease distrust. If there are very few people of a certain group around, it is much easier to entertain delusional views about them. The more there are, the more you know what they are like, the more you can see that there are all kinds of people in the group and that they are not all the same, etc. You have more data you have to reconcile with your views. So it becomes harder to stray from reality.

        Here are two examples:

        – In Imperial Germany, Saxony was a hotbed of antisemitism. Antisemites could win majorities in parliamentary elections there. However, there were hardly any Jews in Saxony. Berlin had 5% Jews, Frankfurt 10% Jews, but antisemites were especially unsuccessful there (of course, there were also some).

        – After reunification, East Germany had almost no immigrants, practically all of them were in West Germany. When there was sometimes pogromlike rioting in the 1990s, it was disproportionately concentrated in East Germany. Here’s a paper by Krueger and Pischke: “A statistical analysis of crime against foreigners in unified Germany” – http://dataspace.princeton.edu/jspui/bitstream/88435/dsp01f7623c59w/1/358.pdf

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      • Christopher Chang
        November 24, 2013

        “mostly natives are the problem”

        If so, I’m pretty darn sure totalitarian override of popular will is a “solution” worse than whatever problem you think is being solved. (And the primary job of country X’s government is to effectively tend to matters concerning country X’s people, not everyone in the world. That’s why it’s just country X’s government instead of an international government.) So, no, you’re wrong: it is sufficient for me to point out a common perception of a problem.

        If you’re that sure you understand these dynamics better than the natives, your job is to convince, not coerce, them. As I’ve mentioned repeatedly in other comments, there are small countries which have native majorities supporting substantially higher immigration; you can cooperate with one or more of them to work toward a real demonstration of a high-functioning open borders society. I predict that the generation of advocates which is finally serious enough to work on something like this is the one that will sustainably advance your cause; until then, the more you cooperate with hostile elites who agree that “natives are the problem” and are working on “solving” that, the more hatred you’ll receive and deserve from those natives.

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  2. Hansjoerg Walther
    November 25, 2013

    How about addressing the argument I actually made, and not just a few words that are misleading without context?

    Here’s the argument:

    If you have two groups, A and B, and A entertains delusional views about B, then there is a problem with A, and not B. (Take A = anti-Semites and B = Jews as an example).

    If you have two groups, A and B, and A entertains views on B that are vastly overblown, then the problem mostly lies with A, and not B.

    These two assertions seem almost tautological to me. It doesn’t matter whether A is a majority or even the entire population. The point is that what they believe is not true or vastly overblown. This doesn’t change because many people believe it.

    Apart from that: I am not asking for totalitarian measures, but only that others do not take them, especially when they are acting on deluded or vastly overblown assertions. Open borders does not mean forcing others to do anything, only that others refrain from using force themselves. That’s pretty much the opposite of what you write is my opinion.

    For a real world example: try Luxembourg. Not perfect by open borders standards, but then also not bad.

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    • Christopher Chang
      November 26, 2013

      “Open borders does not mean forcing others to do anything, only that others refrain from using force themselves.”

      In the sense that asking law enforcement to refrain from protecting [organization X]’s property while a bunch of yahoos look at and take what they want is not “forcing [organization X] to do anything”, yes.

      Systems granting private property rights are currently best-of-breed at a variety of levels, and they require judicious use of force to work. Private property rights include the right to make “wrong” judgments which are limited in scope to the property in question. This is fine because the frequency of “wrong” judgments will naturally decrease over time if there is room for meaningful competition. And there are over 200 countries in the world, and previous blog posts here which have established that at least a few of them are viable bases for consensual open borders experimentation (heck, Singapore’s leadership has engaged in a form of this and by conventional metrics it has one of the highest standards of living in the world; so you’re certainly not restricted to “hellholes”).

      Insistence on stripping away limited-scope property rights, instead of just letting the “wrong” ideas fade out in peaceful competition, implies that you do not actually think the natives’ policies are ineffective. Singapore’s leadership has never believed they have no right to enforce entry rules; they voluntarily relax (or tighten) them in ways they see fit.

      Finally, I had already said that I predict minimal problems for Luxembourg going forward as long as the problematic groups I named do not migrate there in large numbers. Best of luck to the Luxembourgers.

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  3. Hansjoerg Walther
    November 26, 2013

    Maybe I misunderstand your argument, but it looks like we agree:

    – I am all in favor of law enforcement (or anybody else) protecting [organization X]’s property. Why would I not?
    – I am also in favor of respecting property rights: that anybody can decide whom to rent or sell to, whom to hire or support, whom to work for, rent or buy from, etc. = open borders.
    – Luxembourg has been doing fine with immigration. I don’t see reasons to believe that will change in the future.

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    • Christopher Chang
      November 26, 2013

      You disagree with most people, including me, in the last two words of #2. The international consensus is that countries have the right to set and enforce entry rules; this is essentially a form of property right (yes, with extra legal wrinkles because countries have enforcement responsibilities that corporations and smaller organizations don’t).

      Up to the last two words, you’re fine: an employer from country A can always hire a worker from country B on a full-time basis if they both move to open borders country C, in the unfortunate case where country A won’t let the worker immigrate and country B won’t let the employer immigrate. (Heavy *exit* restrictions would get in the way of this, but fortunately Eastern European communism’s fall has mostly eliminated them, and established them as generally evil.) But no, neither employer A nor worker B have a right to override their home countries’ entry rules; they should either find a way to work within them, persuade their countrymen to revise them, or *both* find a new country.

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