5 responses

  1. Nathan Smith
    November 12, 2013

    I was surprised by your assertion that “moderate territorialism is actually quite compatible with open borders.” But when you write that…

    “Open borders skeptics say it’s inhumane to allow people to starve in our streets. But we don’t need to see starvation in our streets under open borders: we can simply subsidise the return ticket home for poor foreigners who lose their jobs.”

    … I see what you mean, and I guess it’s actually true that DRITI could be described as moderately territorialist in a way. That said, it was never part of my proposal to *subisidize* the return ticket home. Rather, my idea was to require them to pay for it in advance. The point of DRITI is to capture the gains from open borders (or most of them), while holding natives harmless (not perfectly but for the most part).

    But I would question these claims:

    “We can offer them a basic social safety net: access to some form of healthcare, perhaps unemployment insurance, etc. All these can be guaranteed at levels lower than what we guarantee natives, but levels that still prevent people from dying in our streets.

    “To put this concretely, government can restrict an immigrant’s access to the state’s retirement funds while still giving the immigrant basic healthcare coverage. Something similar is already the case in the US and most developed countries today. Few, if any, countries give foreigners equal access to their state benefits as they do to citizens — but similarly, few totally deny foreigners access to any benefits. Yet when economists look at the most generous welfare states, even Sweden’s, they find no evidence of the supposed looming fiscal disaster that immigration is supposed to cause. It is perfectly possible to say, as a moderate territorialist-cum-citizenist, that you support open borders with a limited welfare state for non-citizens. Feasibility is not an issue; this is the exact course our governments are already charting capably (though one could argue they could cut foreigners’ access to welfare more). Economists agree that with a limited welfare state, immigrants are not a fiscal burden.”

    Given that a billion people living on $2 a day or less (or something like that), I think even the most miserly social safety net would be a major magnet for immigration. And you can’t say that the example of Sweden proves open borders with a social safety net is affordable, because Sweden doesn’t have open borders, or anything like that. If they did, there would almost certainly be far more immigrants, especially as diasporas accumulate and make the transition easier.

    I’m basically with Bryan: we have to be tough-minded, and just say “No access to welfare for immigrants.” Or at least, for immigrants under the open borders regime, e.g., DRITI visaholders: if you want to keep some protected classes of immigrants, such as certain family reunification visas, and give them access to the welfare state, that’s OK. But unlimited immigration is inconsistent with even the most modest territorialist welfare state. Again, you CAN protect natives from falling wages through transfers, but that’s feasible precisely because you’re not extending those benefits to immigrants. In fact, under DRITI, on the contrary, you’re financing transfers to natives out of poor immigrants’ tax dollars! And the answer to people who find this hard-hearted is just to bang the drum louder and louder that they’re better off than they were at home, otherwise they wouldn’t come. You may sound like a broken record, but the plain fact is that revealed preference is an absolutely killer argument in this case, which absolutely crushes everything in its path. Some people are too dumb to understand it, but it’s so powerful that “if you understand it, you believe it” is hardly an exaggeration. The idea that we’re going to force people to live in poor countries for less than $2 a day their whole lives to protect them from a high risk of less dire poverty on the streets of American or European cities, the idea that we’re doing this for their own good, is ultimately too absurd, and frankly too disingenuous, to stand. DRITI could prevent people from actually dying of starvation in the streets, but we would have to get used to having a lot more visible poverty in rich countries, and comfort ourselves with the fact that open borders wasn’t creating the poverty, but merely removing a blindfold, while enabling us to see it more clearly.

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  2. Burton H. Mckinney
    November 13, 2013

    I agree with comments from the earlier thread that the women analogy was extremely powerful. Unz and Newland simply had no good response to it. You doubled the labour supply — and yet, as Unz himself said, all the fields where women entered did not see incomes go down! What happened to “converting the minimum wage into the maximum wage”? Unfortunately the debate got sidetracked chasing this pointless minimum wage red herring, in part because Wadhwa’s nuanced views made him a less-than-effective partner for the open borders side.

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  3. levinimmigration
    February 1, 2015

    Thanks for sharinf this is perfect blog for me bcoz I am trying to find more sources to get inspored.

    Reply

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