9 responses

  1. Vipul Naik
    October 13, 2012

    I think this is reasonably in line with what I want as well. There are probably disagreements at the margin. But I think that the key thing for open borders advocates to understand is that we shouldn’t let disagreements at the margin bog us down considering that we are all pretty unanimous about the direction in which change needs to happen relative to the current status quo.

    I’ll probably blog this later in more detail: I notice that a lot of commenters on Caplan’s recent persuasion bleg indicated that they’re substantially convinced, but have reservations about some minor aspect. I’d say that this is a concern that can serve to divide once the ball is rolling in moving toward more open borders. It’s not something that should justify complete inaction in terms of trying to change the status quo. But some of Caplan’s commenters seem to be making the case that until Caplan convinces them 100%, they’ll stick with the status quo.

    I personally do have concerns about some of the effects of open borders. I just don’t see them as significant enough to make a case against open borders, but I can understand if some people push for keyhole solutions because they are more worried about these than I am. It’s the attitude of “sorry, you didn’t convince me 100%, so I’ll stick with the arbitrary and terrible status quo” that I don’t have a lot of admiration for.

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  2. nathansmith
    October 13, 2012

    My answer to “What do open borders advocates really want?” would start with: No deportation. To seize by force a person who is peacefully minding his own business, or interacting with others on a consensual basis, on public land (see my theory of streets) or private land he owns or with the consent of another private owner, and take him to another country against his will, is pretty much always and everywhere wrong. It’s most criminal when the people being deported have grown up in a place and have no other home, as with DREAMers, or when it results in the separation of families. But I don’t think deportation is justifiable under virtually any circumstances, apart from extraditing criminals. If deportation is impermissible, how do you make immigration restrictions incentive-compatible? You probably can’t. At any rate, you can’t do it without violating a lot of rights.

    I found myself resisting a bit when you write: “Governments do have the right to refuse entry to people; they do and should have control over their own borders.” Where does that right come from? Where do borders come from, and what is their moral significance? I agree with you that open borders does not mean the abolition of nation-states or international borders. In fact, during the 19th-century age of open borders, the nation-state model was thriving. You might even say it was at the peak of its influence. So nation-states and open borders are consistent. It’s not just a historical example that proves this. We can see it by reason. Suppose a nation-state says: “This government is the elected represented of a certain body of citizens. It claims certain powers, exercised on their behalf. It has the duty to protect their lives, liberty and property, and exercises power in the fulfillment of this duty. It seeks to establish a monopoly of force within a certain territory. It will fight against any other agencies exercising force within this territory, whether it be organized crime or an invading army. It will use force, if necessary, to protect its citizens as long as they are within this territory, but typically not when they are outside it. It will often use force to protect the rights of non-citizens within this territory as well. Such are its powers. To exclude peaceful non-citizens from the territory is not among the rights it claims or the powers it exercises. No efforts will be made to prevent peaceful entry by any person.” What is there illogical, inconsistent, or infeasible about this? This is a policy, one might even say a constitution, of open borders. It is not abolition either of international borders or of the nation-state. Nation-states and international borders are still there. They define legal jurisdiction. But they don’t regulate the movement of people. I’m not saying we should establish it tomorrow, but it’s the goal.

    I also resisted this: “If states wish to enact border controls to keep out… obvious burdens on the state, that is fine by me.” Why keep them out? Why not say, “You can come, if you like, but you’re not eligible for any welfare. You’re on your own. If you still want to come, welcome.”

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    • John Lee
      October 13, 2012

      Nathan,

      Thanks for your thoughts. I completely agree with everything you’ve said about deportation (I don’t personally know any victims of deportation, but I know plenty of people who have “self-deported”, starting with my own mother from Malaysia), and overall I think we are probably 95%, maybe even 100%, in agreement.

      Re actual literal open borders, I think this is a desirable end state for me as well. What I envision is the actual “administrative necessities” that stand in the way of open borders diminishing over time. What I’ve outlined in my post is what I think is completely feasible in the here and now, or the very near future.

      The main reason I think 19th-century-style open borders are not currently feasible is that while the 19th century might have been nationalism’s heyday, it wasn’t the state’s heyday. I think we are now living in the heyday of the state. The reach of legal and social welfare systems today is far more extensive than it ever was in the most developed societies of the 19th century. For this reason, I can see the argument that literal open borders would undermine the “state” aspect of the nation-state.

      My main thinking around “burdens on the state” was that most modern countries subsidise things like healthcare to large degrees for the destitute, and quite often with little regard for things like immigration status. (The idea being that a state still has some basic obligations to non-citizens who reside in its jurisdiction — can’t very well let a Somalian starve to death on your doorstep, though if he’s outside your jurisdiction, somehow that’s much less bothersome.)

      I think the presumption ought to be to let everyone in, but if someone walks up to an officer of the state and says point-blank, “I want to come to your country because I want to use your welfare system,” I can see an argument for rebutting that presumption. Immediately opening the borders 1800s-style would entail the opening of immense political debates and large revisions to vast swaths of public policy that seem quite administratively burdensome to me, even if I think that the decision to refuse entry here remains morally questionable.

      I come back to administrative necessity as the only justifiable reason I can see for allowing any border controls to exist at all: given the way modern states function, I can see the argument that states need to know the identity of people entering their borders, and be able to verify that they don’t obviously pose a threat to their public (e.g. no outstanding arrest warrants, properly vaccinated, etc.).

      I am nevertheless optimistic that technology and globalisation will soon reduce the administrative necessities that circumscribe the possibilities of open borders. And until then, I think we can push for significant liberalisation of the immigration status quo without getting bogged down in having to rewrite welfare laws or land use laws, as desirable as those causes might be too in broadening freedom of movement.

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